"JKD is a Science" (John Little)

[trevor]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11533813/JKD-a-Science

Came across this article and found it quite an interesting read.

The most interesting point for me was, paraphrased... JKD is only limited by human physiology, and given that, how can universally true scientific principles be different for each individual?

Expanding on this, he claims that JKD cannot be arbitrary or subjective, as some JKD Concepts schools claim, in order to qualify as a science, i.e. based on principles that are universally true for all human beings.

There's also an interesting section on the Filipino Martial Arts towards the end, and basically quotes Game of Death.

What does everyone think?

Trev

[James McRae]

Oh boy... It's more of the "Original JKD vs. JKD Concepts" dispute.  I thought this debate died with the JKD Nucleus (though I've seen its fetid zombie shambling amongst the pages of Terri Tom's book).

Prima facie, I agree with the point that there are objective, universal standards in the martial arts.  However, the dismissal of JKD Concepts as subjective (and thus relativist) is problematic.  The epistemology that the now-defunct JKD Nucleus seems to endorse is the idea that all truth is grounded in what Bruce Lee thought, taught, or practiced.  I subscribe to the pragmatist school of thought here: truth is functionality.  In other words, if a particular idea allows practitioners to flourish, then that idea is true. 

If we use this functional notion of truth, then a jab is a great punch because it works very well for everybody, regardless of an individual's build.  But should it be thrown with a vertical fist by everybody every time?  Probably not.  A jab seems to work just as well with a horizontal fist if a person is comfortable throwing it (the primary reason for the vertical fist being to protect your knuckles on impact).  If a person has a weak bone structure or is simply worried about breaking his/her hand, an open palm jab or finger jab might be better.  This is a universal principle (a straight, non-telegraphic lead punch is effective) that permits varied implementation in practice (different people might throw it slightly different ways depending on their bodies, their opponents, etc.). 

In other words, to borrow from philosopher Onora O'Neill, just because something is universal does not mean that its implementation must be uniform. 

[MaxD]

Honestly I think this is a more or less bogus claim.  The 'scientific principles' that guys like little claim exist do so only as platitudes, and untested hypotheses.  At their base these claims when examined deeply amount to nothing more than saying, well, JKD obeys the laws of physics.  Fine.  But so do all martial arts that do not claim magic powers.  There is no cost-benfit analysis, no statistical analysis, no testing of any hypothesis no any thing scientific, as yet, in JKD.   Saying that the JKD Straight Lead for instance is biomechanically the best punch in the history of fighting because it follows scientific principles is not anything like justifying that statement scientifically.  So until I see p-values <0.001, some large sample sizes, extensive compartitive studies, hell even reasonable definitions of the platitudes (wasted motion, efficiency, etc) I will consider this science of JKD bunkiss.  That Little doesn't realize how much physiological differences and limitations affect the expression of one's martial arts illustrates to me that he, like the people who love his Lee books, are caught up in a cult of personality.

All performance based martial artists engage in a semi-scientific journey of discovering with their coaches and training partners what works for them.  Bruce Lee was no different.  However you would not say he had discovered anything but an objective method for unleashing subjective skills.  But even saying it that way, I am left with reservations.  Lee did not do any scientific research that we could say bolsters our confindence in his personal assertions about fighting.  All we can say is that his researches allowed himt o unleash a suite of techniques that worked well for him (at least according to his own reports).

[James McRae]

I forgot to mention earlier...  thanks for posting this, Trev.  It was an interesting read.

Nice analysis, MaxD.  

Any other responses?

[trevor]

OJKD vs JKDC aside (I'm not interested), this idea of a correct way of doing things, or shall we say, a biomechanically more efficient way of doing things, resonated with what I've been studying of Tony Blauer's research (which I'll get to  below), as well as something I heard Matt Thornton say on one of his videos, along the lines of...
"there is a correct/best way to armbar, RNC, etc.".

Biomechanics and physics are only one aspect of the sciences to consider also... psychology (fear management, performance enhancement, tactical decision making, etc.) and the behavioural sciences (verbal dynamics & strategies, etc., congruent body language, sucker punch psychology), particularly for the street, I consider perhaps the more important of the sciences applied to combatives to take into consideration. Afterall, the mind navigates the body as Tony Blauer says. To further quote/paraphrase Coach Blauer, physiology unites us all - there's no overriding a flinch response per se - everyone does it, regardless of how well trained, like it or not - and as unconscious neuromuscular communication (UNMC) is much faster than conscious neuromuscular communication (CNMC) as well as being involuntary, more reliable also. Coach B asserts that humans are survival organisms - survival instincts are hard-wired, and when we start to build a combative system, physiology rules - the core is, or should be, "what the body wants to do [in the face of danger] prior to any training".

[Burton]

I haven't read it yet, but will in a few days. I'll give a response then.

Until then, here is a quiz: Which martial arts writer came up with the now ubiquitous terms, "OJKD and JKDC"?

[Patrick_H]

Until then, here is a quiz: Which martial arts writer came up with the now ubiquitous terms, "OJKD and JKDC"?

Was it you, Burton?

Cheers!
Patrick

[trevor]

wasn't it Jerry Beasley?

Trev

[marcus]

my 2 faverite points are

1. if you dont use the lead punch as youre faverite punch then you are a retard.

2. to elove as a martial artist is bad , humans reached perfections 100,000 years ago.

those parts are around the picture of bruce lee doing some sort of tapi traps on a guy that do a tiger claw pictures.

i have personally looked at those variation of lead punch , the jab and the straight lead.
and my pernonnal conclusion is that

.the straight lead have a lot of penetration power a bit like an arrow or a spear would have, sad thing is that its very hard to place in a combination because you have to be all into it when you throw so youre body will end up kind of side way so its hard to throw a rear hand or whatever follow up afther that, an other thing is that it just work well whit a foward step its really hard to throw it while side stepping or whit a diagonal step.

.the jab can be throwed fast slow hard quicky or whatever way you like and still work , he is more smooth and is perfect to place in the beggining of a combination. he works whit so many differant types of footwork he is more i can say 3dimentional compare the the straight lead .

thats a quick review 

straight lead is present in thai boxing , english boxing and probaly in other arts to, its not a Bruce Lee creation.

that Jhon Little is a old 70s peace and love dude and probably never trained seriously , he just pissed me of whit his stupidity , it have always a philosoly saying or a quote that can make what you say seem more true or legitimate that trick to sell ideas is getting old

sorry for my bad english guys .. and girls ( how knows maybe there is one on the forum) 

[D.Stachovak]

One of the problems with the whole "original" school of JKD thought is the idea of range. I find that these guys,much like other traditional martial artists,have a false concept of range that does not seem to include clinching,takedowns,or grappling. I still do not think that the power side up lead is functional,let alone superior. Without a strong cross,it's hard to keep another striker off your chest. The more "sideways" JKD stance seems like it would be very difficult to sprawl from. "JKD",for what it's worth,belongs to the living,we should train as smart and efficiently as possible so we can keep on living!

[James McRae]

I haven't read it yet, but will in a few days. I'll give a response then.

Until then, here is a quiz: Which martial arts writer came up with the now ubiquitous terms, "OJKD and JKDC"?

First guess: Miyamoto Musashi
Second guess: Sun Tzu
Third guess: Burton Richardson

[D.Stachovak]

I haven't read it yet, but will in a few days. I'll give a response then.

Until then, here is a quiz: Which martial arts writer came up with the now ubiquitous terms, "OJKD and JKDC"?

Jerry Beasley