Seperate Arts or MMA in 2010??

[adamuk]

Been a while since I posted but have recently been reading an excellent new MMA Magazine in the UK Fighting Fit.

In a section they may take a topic like CROSSFIT or YOGA and have two fitness instructors discuss the pros and cons of it for mma.

So I was interested if everyone views regarding 'ranges' has changed over the last few years?

Previously I was very much on the side of study each art individually.....Boxing, Thai, BJJ, judo, wrestling, etc.
But more recently I have been watching a lot of MMA bouts and have been hearing how punches are thrown differently or from a different stance as mma fighters have to be able to defend against take downs and kicks unlike boxers.
If this is the case with mma, then street fights have always been about anything goes so I'm starting to lean towards the opinion that it is better to train in a good MMA club than at separate clubs/systems.

Just interested in everyone thoughts and if you have also switched opinions over the years??

SECONDLY :- Does the fact that MMA is done without shoe make Savate an ineffective kicking art to study?
I don't get the fact in a few UK JKD clubs they tell students to pull the toes back and kick savate style when training mma! Yes we are aiming for the soft targets of the body but IMO in combat its not uncommon to hit the hard parts also!

Again, any thoughts?


Cheers,




Adam.
UK

[johnmarkpainter]

I have always thought you should address all the ranges as a whole and supplement with specialized training as the opportunity arises.

About kicking with the ball of the foot...
What did you mean by that?
Are you saying it isn't strong enough?

John

[Terry]

I think training separate arts is good. As long as you:  Train them in a Vale Tudo environment (Sparring) so that you learn their weaknesses and strength's. BJJ is awesome, but if you don't add strikes to certain positions you will feel safe...when your not. This is a cornerstone of JKDU training methodology!

I think the savate question he is referring to with shoes they actually use the tip of shoe (you probably know that)...to get past certain defense...the same strategy can be used in MMA but buy kicking with the ball of your foot..

Round kicking to the solar plexus works great using this method, when a person has good defense (tight boxing structure).

[johnmarkpainter]

Ah...I get it.
I just don't know why that kick is strange to him.

If you throw a Round Kick and the other guy does a standard Arm Cover, it is possible to Crack him in the ribs, liver, spleen  or kidneys with your foot.
Also works to the Thigh and Stomach.

I started in TKD.  We had to break two boards from a 90 degree angle with a Ball of the Foot Round Kick.
It takes practice but is certainly effective.

[Terry]

I think it is strange to him...because alot of people limit there tools when they practice.

Jab could be a finger jab or palm strike...people just get locked in...and dont always us the best tool for the job.

I always tell my guys that when I am teaching I am using this...but it could be whatever works..and have them vary their tools.

[peregrine]

I perused through fighting fitness last week and thought it had some interesting articles. I will keep an eye on them, though I do question the authors credibility on some of the articles as I cannot recall their credentials noted. Like CSCS, CPT, MPT, or similar.

____________

On the topic I think it is important to define goals before deciding how the best way to get their is.
Being a good boxer and being the state champion in boxing differs from being the next amateur belt holder for the local mma circuit.

This coupled with available resources such as what is available, instructor quality, instructor teaching style, frequency, schedules, conveienace, cost and such may come in to play.

We also need to consider age of individuals and time expectancy. Though mma has improved multifolds since UFC I, mma fighters that traditionally have done well on a higher level have had a strong sometimes elite base in one style. These persons developed their base over several years and many-many hours of structured instruction and competition. Individuals that have reached elite levels who have entered mma later in life with minimal martial experience have had a broad multilateral development from other sports. ie Keith Jardine football. With the evolution of mma indivduals best able to circumvent the increased base level of mma athletes are those that have both a strong base in another combat sport and havegood athletic ability. Part of this athletic ability is likely innate, but in many cases I suspect it was developed from years of structured physical rigor - rugby, wrestling, football, baseball, lacrosse, etc.

If the Adult student wants to train for street self defense a broad specturm approach is very viable as it will immediately allow him to rapidly implement skills at various ranges as well as ngoetiate each range succesfully against low to medium level threats.
This is not to say that their are not specialized blcks or cycles programmed into the persons training that focus on work past the unconcious competence level- ie niche mastery. But in general most mma programs focus on a broad array of skills. From my perspective the person who is able to control the ranges with the ability to implement their will at each range is often the winner.(aside from fluke kos). The goal from my perspective is to not only put the person in your preferred range, but to put him in his weakest range which may change your strategy. It may also be to keep changing ranges to stay ahead of his efforts physically and psychologically. Which will set up the finish. OODA.

For young sthletes I subscribe to the russian philosophy of a broad base in athleticism and beginning specialization when it is appropriate to the average peak in international level athletes. Multilateraldevelopment is important for all around effectivenss. Goals being hand eye coordination, breathing patterns, energy system development, flexibility, triple extension, mimicry, goal setting, peripheral eye/mind development and a host of others.
Young athlete specialization gives them the potential for colleigate play and scholarships as well as the olympics.
A few years ago the ceiling on mma was limited so athletes used mma as the end of the road sport, now people are getting in at a younger age and the pay outs are more.

[peregrine]

To sum it up imo it matters what one's goals are.
If you want to have a few mma fights an mma club may offer a decent vehicle, if your goal is to be an elite mma athlete then general sports development at an early age followed by combat sports specialization into the teens and later mma to integrate would be my strategy. Develop an appropriate timeline and make adjustments as needed.
___________________

No, I don't want my kid doing mma, at the least not until he is mid to late teens. I do not see a problem with teaching a child a few basic skills from each range, but mma is not going to be part of his life.

^ If you're writting an article it'd be nice to get a copy.

___________________

Savate kick- I like the rear leg foute. I still need a lot of work on it.

[Shelt]

To sum it up imo it matters what one's goals are.
If you want to have a few mma fights an mma club may offer a decent vehicle, if your goal is to be an elite mma athlete then general sports development at an early age followed by combat sports specialization into the teens and later mma to integrate would be my strategy. Develop an appropriate timeline and make adjustments as needed.
___________________

No, I don't want my kid doing mma, at the least not until he is mid to late teens. I do not see a problem with teaching a child a few basic skills from each range, but mma is not going to be part of his life.

excellent imo!

[Shelt]

If this is the case with mma, then street fights have always been about anything goes so I'm starting to lean towards the opinion that it is better to train in a good MMA club than at separate clubs/systems.

Obviously a streetfight and a MMA fight differ so here's my take. One can be quite successful in a streetfight having a few tools and the requisite attributes developed in a singular base style because the level of skill in most people is almost ZERO. Aggression and surprise likewise play HUGE roles in the outcome of a streetfight too.....so attack hard and fast with a karate reverse punch, football tackle, WC straightblast, nipple-twist or Judo osoto gari to gain the upperhand. It's only when one faces a skilled/armed/multiple opponents that a broader skillset becomes increasingly important. We've seen this played out in lots of internet videos like the karate instructor dropping a pimp in the street with a reverse punch or a sport BJJer choking out an opponent, etc.

Like Peregrine, my long term goal is for my children to have a strong base upon which I can add a few basic skills and tools in other ranges. MMA training (not specifically competition) can be a future training goal.

[marcus]

to asnwer the initial question ,

i think you can train arts seperately yes but if you do that to ultimately put them together  it might be important to not train in arts enter in conflict, i explain,
example:
even if thai boxing and english boxing might look similar in some aspects , there structure are differant and there focus to. lots of english boxing footwork wont do good for thai boxing , the thai boxing stances do not really allow you to throw a jab the way english boxing throw it and use it and the english boxing stance dont create good lines for thai boxing kicks knees and elbows ,  ( elbows can be done not to badly i think from a boxing stance still).
even the energie is a bit differant from one form of boxing to the other , you can allow youre body to be more tense i think in english boxing then in thai boxing , there is a lot of habbits to that goes in oposite ways like clinch is good versus clinch is not good .
i guess the same goes whit judo and brazilian jujitsu or wrestling and bjj maybe ( im not very knowledgables in the grapling arts so i dont know exactly).
so i guess it might be good to choose arts that wont mess whit the others you do , example , boxing , wrestling for the clinch and bjj for the ground might be a combo that flow well where the arts dont work against each others,
then you can practice them seperately and together doesnt matter.
thats what my experience showed me
thats a good interogation i think
ok later guys

[Josh]

Would you train in baseball to prepare yourself for a cricket match?  Obviously, there is some skill transfer like 'swinging at a bat' but they are more dissimilar than similar.  Lots of skills needed for baseball don't really apply and that's wasted training time. OK -, this is probably a bad analogy.

Lots of the great MMA fighters now in their late 20's, 30s, or even 40s have a solid base in a 'discrete art' because training solely in MMA just wasn't any option because they started training before the MMA phenomenon took off.  Just because that's the what a given top fighter did, doesn't mean it's the most efficient path to getting up to the level.

You mentioned CrossFit vs. Yoga.  I do both every week.  CrossFit is basically the MMA of the fitness world and incorporates exercises from Olympic lifting through gymnastics. CF work outs generally incorporate Yoga stretches as part of their cool down phase.  One of the instructions at my CF gym is also a Yoga instructor.  Yoga does not incorporate weight training, serious cardio conditioning, or plyometrics; all things that are needed for success in any martial art.  CF is all about violent maximal effort while Yoga is about calm and relaxing your body.  I'm sure most MMA athletes could get away with just CF but my body needs additional stretching to stay limber.

[peregrine]

Would you train in baseball to prepare yourself for a cricket match?  Obviously, there is some skill transfer like 'swinging at a bat' but they are more dissimilar than similar.  Lots of skills needed for baseball don't really apply and that's wasted training time. OK -, this is probably a bad analogy.

Lots of the great MMA fighters now in their late 20's, 30s, or even 40s have a solid base in a 'discrete art' because training solely in MMA just wasn't any option because they started training before the MMA phenomenon took off.  Just because that's the what a given top fighter did, doesn't mean it's the most efficient path to getting up to the level.

I may have not been clear enough in my post.
For all I suggest goal development in the short and long term. This will help dictate further action.
For young athletes (prepubescent children) I subscribe to a broad base in athletics.
For ADULTs, again I defer back to goal setting. If the goal is a couple of mma smokers then a garage club mma gym with backyard instruction may do. 1x a week practice and a mixed bag of training may be enough to satisfy the athlete.
If from the beginning or after a period of time a higher goal is desired then measures should be made in training and the athletes life to reflect this. Inluding higher quality training, increased frequency,
*reduced outside activites(ie crosstraining),
quality eatting plan, overall an increase in intensity, frequency and duration.

For cricket vs baseball. Who are we talking about? If we're talking about 7year old children then the answer will be different than a high school junior vying for scouters, which will be different from the professional attempting to make a come back.

In response to "just cause that's what a top fighter did, does not make it the most effcient." Again my writting may lack clarity and some of the depth to my logic. Making an efficient mma fighter may or may not be the goal. If it is then in a mid teen to young adult using the specificity theory would likely be most efficient. If we are talking about taking young children and making them into a top mma fighter. There has been a lot of research into athlete development and most of it and the deepest pockets were from the Russians as they viewed the Olympics as a war on a different front.
In short you create an earlier peak, an increase in injury rate, lower general athleticism, and burn out. NOTE- I do acknowledge that the Russians did in part use multilateral development to scout for athletes, but what this does help is to find out what a child has potential for.
Getting to 'great mma fighters ...level' Specificicity has its limits.

[peregrine]

Would you train in baseball to prepare yourself for a cricket match?  Obviously, there is some skill transfer like 'swinging at a bat' but they are more dissimilar than similar.  Lots of skills needed for baseball don't really apply and that's wasted training time. OK -, this is probably a bad analogy.

If my timeline was 10-15 years, yes.
I would train a multitude of sports especially as a child to develop a broad base of athleticism.

If my timeline was 2-3years no. For recreation, maybe on occassion.

You also mentioned Crossfit, crossfit attempts to combine a number of athletic skills into it's own sport. Crossfit.
A large amount of those skills are components of a variety of sports. Unless you were exposed to those sports you would not develop them. muscle up, triple extension some of them.

[peregrine]

Coaches and athletes sometimes fall into the trap of training and progress is always linear. If you are point 60 in a scale of 1-100 it doesn't always mean you will not fall back to 50.

A great thing I like about Burtons systemized approach is his attempt to harness niche mastery. His system is scalable and progressive.
JKDU does this by utilizing isolation rounds. A lot of gyms may do isolation rounds, but by logging them literally and physically, focusing on key aspects of each range the athlete is able to optimize training. Link this deliberate practice with rage to mastery and you have a system that has a high probability of success even on elite levels.

My primary quest as of late is how to make the rage to mastery positively compulsive(in young athletes).

[adamuk]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

OK, sorry the Savate kick I was shown I wrote up incorrectly.
They tend to curl the toes under ..........NOT pull them back(I was originally taught that in Karate back in the 80's!).........even writing my first post it made no sense to me and my brain didn't let me write correctly as I said the toes would break on contact.

I have to agree with the age thing.......
I don't like kids punching at an early age..........I know of lots that have trouble closing their hands at a later age after starting boxing so young. I personally would start kids in grappling arts but throw in OPEN HAND strikes as primary range is punching/conversation or the interview range in most street fights/ school yard brawls.

Also as they have age on their side I would still possibly let them learn the arts individually. BUT what I do take into account is that MMA is changing so rapidly!!! There will be lots of good MMA clubs available in 5-10 years with coaches that have studied all the arts individually and are now teaching them as one.

The older guys will have had a base and added striking or grappling to it. But I think if you are young enough, train he arts separately.

If you are almost 40 like me, then a good MMA club will be best bet.