Police business...

[Luis Barneto]

... any commments?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2I7wCJs53Pc

[Burton]

Nice post! First, as soon as he turned around to put his glasses in the truck they should have tackled him. He turned again later too.
  Notice that the baton strikes to the legs did nothing, nor did pepper spray. The police had no plan and very poor training. Lucky they weren't badly injured.

[sierra1]

It's like watching Wheel of Fortune.

You can't help the poor bastards, but maybe by yelling at the screen they'll hear you:

Poor Bastard: "Geez, Pat....I just don't know what that word is!"

Us: "Choke, you idiot!!!!   C-H-O-K-E!!!!!"...."I could totally win that car..."

Poor Bastard: "I guess I'll buy a...."  BAM!

[James McRae]

I have to wonder what kind of chemical agent was in that spray.  It looked like cone-spray mace or CS (tear gas), not pepper spray.  If they had been using 10%, 2-4 million SHU, stream pepper spray, I think we would have seen a different reaction (at the very least, blindness and labored breathing).  If the assailant was on drugs, mace/CS wouldn't have done much, though it's likely that pepper spray would still have been somewhat effective.  

I wonder if that baton strike was aimed at the knee or the thigh.  The baton restrictions that most LEOs face are pretty ridiculous.  They are typically shown a chart like the one below and tolk only to strike the green target areas.  Of course, in Kali class, we're always taught to hit the red and yellow areas first (with the exception of the hands), which means that police are allowed to hit you only in the least effective places.  Situations that justify red targets usually also justify drawing a taser or firearm.

[amando]

here in my country (belgium), police officers must also follow the same restrictions as presented in the monadnock table. the use of any kind of batons by the police is very seldom, with the exeption of the anti riot unit . 
what happened in that video, happens here in my country thousands of times.  police nowadays, is trained and drilled in dialogue.  few days ago there was a brawl in the city, police arrived with few men, and the only thing they did , was talking to the fighting guys, and saying they must go home.  no intervention, no arrest , nothing.  this is so ridiculous .  most of the training of our police is also very poor.  during the formation, they receive a basic formation of japanese jiujitsu; most of techniques are done with a cooperative partner.  unfortunately this is the concept in many european countries.  violence is increasing , thugs are usually with many, armed with knives, sticks, etc... and many are practising a martial art.  usually the thugs here are trained in muay thai.  i think it is time that our politics, wake up and adapt the training of our military and police to the needs of today's violence in the streets.  some vale tudo type training with and without weapon disarms is a must.  without that , i fear that very often, the officers won't be as lucky as those here above, and some peole will get badly injured.
this is just my opinion, of i how i feel things are going on ; i someone is and officer and is offended by my sayings, sorry for that

[peregrine]

In reply to James post...
this video in the sub column on the listed video was interesting... some lessons learned here I hope.
I initially thought as a assisting officer coming up behind an enraged suspect, what type of baton strike to make the aggressor cease aggression? (edit I am not LEO, but as a scenario)

[James McRae]

Nice find, Peregrine.  It seems to me that neither officer was prepared for the sucker punch.  Their hands were down at their sides, not high and centered in a de-escalation stance.  The officer on the right turns away from the suspect and the guy on the left freezes as soon as the punch is thrown rather than immediately clinching with the suspect (or stepping back and transitioning to a weapon).  I know both Burton and Tony Blauer teach LEOs to keep their hands up while interviewing suspects so that they can immediately crash-cover/SPEAR into a sucker punch or wedge and side-step to avoid clinch and weapon grab attempts.

[TropicalStorm]

Just because you are a police officer, it doesn't mean you know how to fight...   I'm guessing that their use of force training involves cooperative subjects.  I'm guessing that their patrol area involves lots of cooperative law obeying citizens that don't scrap.  There may be restrictive rules of rules that work against the police...

I could see that the police are fumbling around and not controlling the situation immediately.  The longer the suspect goes on, the more confident that suspect feels.  The police are on video looking incompetent but clearly not the aggressor.  I guess that's good in court.

Baton strikes to the large muscle mass can be resisted by an angry person for a while.  Most people can not deliver picture perfect strikes against somebody not cooperating.  They really don't teach that at the academy *wry grin*.  Unfortunately, my experience with baton strikes is that most of the time- they don't even feel it.  Only repeated blows or you actually hit bone will then they feel it.  The police training with the baton is a built in failure because of the liability involved.  They can not teach you to kill... They (attempt t) teach you to stop... See the difference? 

It's not a choke... It's a vascular neck restraint...  It's funny until you are grilled in court and facing potential criminal charges.

These guys reminds me of myself until I encountered Burton's training.  One of the continuous strikes and push drills that Burton teaches would have served nicely.

Yes, I did recently get to use my baton.  Yes, I do know that if it wasn't for Burton's weapons training, my blows would have been less skillful and effective.  At the end, the guy didn't even complain about it and I did my job.  Thanks Burton, your training came through for me again!

[Randy_Daniels]

Hello all!  I could only watch 2 min., 30 sec.'s into the first video before I couldn't take it anymore.  I deal with folks like that everyday.  The officers showed absolutely no control of the situation from the beginning nor did they act appropriately with the aggressive subject.  The subject showed pre-assault indicators right from the beginning, even before he removed his glasses!  With three officers 10-97 (on scene), they should have simply jumped on each limb and took him to the ground before he escalated (i.e. sunglass removal).  Interestingly, I have only found OC spray effective on dogs.  Ok, rant over!   

[Burton]

Thanks to all of you law enforcement officers for facing the bad guys on a daily basis. I'm glad that you are safe TS.

Amazing how the politically correct, hands off approach can filter down to the streets. Lucky the guy didn't go off on some innocents.

There is a time for force, but only if the officers are well-trained, meaning against a resisting opponent.

Ryan, that Wheel Of Fortune analogy is priceless! 

The good guys have to be better equipped to control a situation than the bad guys, especially when the bad guy is just tough.

[James McRae]

I think pepper spray is less effective for LEOs than it is for civilians because each group has different goals in the encounter.  For a police officer, OC spray has to incapacitate an opponent: the criminal has to stop fighting altogether so that he can be approached, handcuffed, and taken into custody.  For a civilian, it only has to hurt an opponent enough so that he can't follow you: if your attacker can't see or breathe well, he won't be able to chase you effectively. 

I'm a civilian, not an LEO, so I think of pepper spray as a "distance maker": I'm going to spray and then run like hell.  The real danger of using pepper spray is when you try to approach the guy who has been sprayed: he can't see or breathe very well, but he's mad as hell and can fight just fine once he gets his hands on you.  Also, you have to worry about cross-contamination when you grapple.  Nonetheless, the study done by the NYPD found that pepper spray effectively incapacitated about 84% of the people sprayed with it.  Is a gun a more effective weapon?  Sure.  But it's also illegal to carry in a lot of places and, as lethal force, is not legal to use in many situations in which pepper spray is appropriate. 

Here's a link to the NYPD study: http://www.nyc.gov/html/ccrb/pdf/pepperreport.pdf