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Author Topic: Proper form vs. sloppy form (the windmail attack)  (Read 2742 times)
Combative
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« on: April 22, 2006, 11:02:00 PM »

Hi guys

I was at a muay thai event yesterday to watch the fights.

One fight was really tragic, one guy had a good form, a well trained fighter and the other guy was looking like a beginner who was walking in a martial arts gym for the first day!!!

I will explain you what I mean with that, as the fight begun, this "untrained" fighter was attacking the other fighter (with good form) with a WINDMAILING ATTACK over and over again! The trained fighter was beaten up very badly - and the irony is, that the other guy WON this fight!

He didn`t kicked, he didn`t clinched, he only where SWINGING like a wild man during this 3 rounds and he WON the fight!

i believe that the "trained" fighter was not used to this kind attack and lost because of this weakness.

So, the moral from the story is, that everything which you don`t know can be your downfall.

It`s important to attack also like a ROOKIE.

Peace

Combative
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Inirie
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2006, 08:28:59 AM »

hmmm...maybe Burton can add the windmill attack on next months dvd. (and defence ofcourse!)  Laughing
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Burton
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« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2006, 10:39:38 AM »

That would be part of the Waianae Boy game.  We also do that with weaponry, where one person attacks wildly.  Very important part of the training, because you will probably get attacked by an undisciplined fighter.
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Viperousmango
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« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2006, 04:11:13 AM »

Ahh, we have done the Waianae Boy game several times, thanks to Bryan's evil proformance games!. I remember my first encounter with the windmill attack, I thought it was a joke untill I got smacked in the helmet 5 times before I got knocked backwards. After that I never underestimate anything even if it looks rediculous!!
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Burton
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« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2006, 02:48:48 PM »

Great that you got that experience in the gym and not in the ring!
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Viperousmango
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« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2006, 06:14:06 PM »

Yeah no kidding! Not my idea of fun =b.
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~~"Can you break a board?" "I'm not sure, never been attacked by a tree..." -Sensai
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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2006, 06:22:52 AM »

Burton

It`s good that this kind of sloppy attacks are in the curriculum of JKDU. So you don`t get caught by a technique you don`t know. Very Happy

Peace

Juan
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peregrine
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« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2006, 07:41:09 AM »

i think i may try some wild unorthodox punches next time i spar someone with a good guard but limited counterattacks.
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Cr8
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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2006, 12:49:55 PM »

I don't think it was necessarily the way he threw the punches it was the pace and pressure which worked in his favor.  A lot of times when we train for competition we get used to a certain pace because of the timed rounds and the ref not allowing a clinch for too long (particularly in boxing/kickboxing).  Instead of looking at the types of strikes used focus on the pace and pressure they are used at.  

So a good idea is to have one partner in a corner and then the other partner attack with constant pressure until the cornered one quits or deals with it.  This is where one really needs to train true and be honest with ones capabilities.  I trust in my skills and the skills of my training partners to the point where I would insist that they attack me all out to give a true gauge of my ability.  I would also do the same as they request so that they don't have a false sense of security.  Not everyone is prepared to train like this but it is my responsibility as a coach to recognize when to step in if necessary.

A note on using weird angles of attack.  No matter where the unorthodox strike originates it is going to the same target that the orthodox strike is targeting.  So if you are getting caught that just means that your defense has holes.  I don't have a different defensive posture or stance for every different attack I might see,  I focus on protecting my knockout points (temple, jaw, groin, etc.) and consistently use the same defensive positioning.  In my mind, all attacks are meant to draw my defenses away from my knockout points to leave them vulnerable.

Good points by all as usual.

Train true brothers,
Creight
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Burton
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2006, 01:42:21 PM »

Great post Cr8!
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Viperousmango
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« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2006, 05:38:35 AM »

Another idea one could do, is transition from standing to a leg-take-down. I find that if someone is rushing with a straight-blast, the windmill punches, large haymakers etc... that it just might be easyer and safter to just take the low route and go for that take-down.

Also, for my size (5'9") it allows me to close the distance on a bigger opponent  (who probably has more reach) faster than me trying to wedge through flailing fists of doom towards my face.

And if they are rusing forward, doing a scooping-style leg-take-down, or just an angled shoulder-to-knee dive, I find it is a lower-risk technique since they have so much forward momentum that by the time they realizing you're going low that its too late and WHAM. Very Happy

Just a thought... *shrugs*
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~~"Can you break a board?" "I'm not sure, never been attacked by a tree..." -Sensai
Cr8
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« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2006, 08:27:32 AM »

V-Mango,
      That is a really good idea against this kind of pressure.  Some things I try to keep in mind is making sure that I time it where I level change right at the last moment so that my opp cannot adjust his attack.  I also make a conscious effort to  quickly squeeze his legs together to minimize any sprawl attempt and make sure that I am comfortable performing the takedown while getting knocked back as often happens with real opp pressure.  Stephen Kesting has a good demo here:

http://www.grapplearts.com/Shoot-VS-Right-Cross.htm

Train true,
Creighton
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peregrine
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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2006, 02:00:09 PM »

Quote from: Cr8
I don't think it was necessarily the way he threw the punches it was the pace and pressure which worked in his favor.  A lot of times when we train for competition we get used to a certain pace because of the timed rounds and the ref not allowing a clinch for too long (particularly in boxing/kickboxing).  Instead of looking at the types of strikes used focus on the pace and pressure they are used at.  


what comes to my mind is a drill that i know Burton has used as he mentioned in a post awhile back about bjj. you drill from every position.it can be round robin style, aor bull ring style. you play everyone, in every position.
from your strong positions and your weak positions, this way you do not gravitate toward your comfort level, if you're not in it. you either try to pass/escape/submit depending on the position. works well for all aspects of fighting, standing, clinch, grappling, etc...

"in relation to the words on pace and pressure. "
training for competition and self defense may differ, but offensive and defensive skills in general transfer over. (aside from eye jabs, fish hooks and groin pulls)training primarilly for competition imho provides better skill and attribute development, as opposed to places that primarilly train for self defense. while training much of this has to do with the sparring variable, but training 100% on a sparring partner is not always ideal.

to be a complete fighter you need short rounds where you can work as if in "combat" on the street and you need rounds that match competition to develop attributes that corelate to competition that have transfer over to self defense.  as well as you need rounds and situational training.

pace and pressure is a seperate variable. it's extremes could be added or detracted to focus on seperate aspects of figthing.

Cr8 cutting the ring or cage in concept is also critical as you mentioned, it actually came to my mind last week in class, simulating a ring or cage can be useful.

a comment on sparring.
many trains of thought on this...
in many boxing gyms the green guy is thrown in and tested to his limit. likely the first day or week.  this has pros and cons. it immediatelly shows inherent attributes like heart, speed, agility, chin. but it can cripple the development of the less genetically gifted athlete and even in gifted ones. the green guy is either viewed as having it or not. black and white. to be trained or told to leave. this will quickly weed out the majority.

another way some call inducive training.
100% sparring has it's place but it is a small piece imho.doing it 10-30% of the time is a good gauge to me.. it's primary role imho is to gauge your level. more of an ego thin. in my mind for grudge matches or to develop mental toughness for an upcoming fight.  this includes varying speeds. which may not always increase with force. this also does not mean i do not like going all out at times. sombrada comes to mind here.

we all get hit and there is always someone better.

*sparrings primary role imho is that of skill development.  against less skilled opponents in general one should attempt to work on his weaknesses in general not there strengths. there's no glory or honor in beating down someone with less skill using your best attributes, but if you are able to work on your weaknesses against these less skilled fighters you will bring those weaknesses to a comfort level. even if the less skilled guy is using his best talents and you are using your weaker talents. sometimes he'll best you, but you learn. that is the objective imho. not how many times i tap or rock my partner.

***with that i do believe in scheduled fights. something for people to peak for. test themselves in the ring instead of in the gym, this will create more gym harmony instead of gym rivalry. i see my training partners as trainers, not opponents to knock down for a scratch on my belt. if i am catching joe schmoe because of a specific hole in his game i will help him not punch bigger holes in it.  
for the fights-analyze the fight, plan a strategy, implement it, then evaluate and repeat.

feeding your partner and swinging like a wild man is a good drill.

other points on pace and pressure in the street-
 "strike first, stikre hard, show no mercy"

 
see you guys in the gym.
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Cr8
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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2006, 04:53:16 PM »

Good post Peregrine! Smile

"in relation to the words on pace and pressure. "
training for competition and self defense may differ, but offensive and defensive skills in general transfer over. (aside from eye jabs, fish hooks and groin pulls)training primarilly for competition imho provides better skill and attribute development, as opposed to places that primarilly train for self defense. while training much of this has to do with the sparring variable, but training 100% on a sparring partner is not always ideal.

I agree for the most part especially the idea using competition style training as a way of developing the skills and attributes.  But pace and pressure deal with how one deploys said skills.  I firmly believe that you will fight as you train so I constantly try and find the balance between competition training for skill/attribute development and sparring/fighting to get acclimated to true fight pace and pressure.

to be a complete fighter you need short rounds where you can work as if in "combat" on the street and you need rounds that match competition to develop attributes that corelate to competition that have transfer over to self defense.  as well as you need rounds and situational training.

When we talk about rounds we cannot help but recognize that there is a beginning and an end, and that knowledge will affect pace and pressure.  Thats why I try and emphasize the idea of finishing or disengaging safely, the engagement doesn't end until one or the other occurs, which is how street altercations usually happen.  I believe in adapting street to competition instead of the other way around because of the concerns about pace and pressure.

pace and pressure is a seperate variable. it's extremes could be added or detracted to focus on seperate aspects of figthing.

I still think that we should try and focus on pace and pressure as most times that is what decides a fight.  I mean look at even the highest levels of competition, these guys are cardio machines and they are in excellent shape, but even in the controlled environment of the ring they gas out because they failed to train the tools and attributes enough at fight pace and pressure.

Cr8 cutting the ring or cage in concept is also critical as you mentioned, it actually came to my mind last week in class, simulating a ring or cage can be useful.

I use the barrier ideas to try and simulate not being able to escape (for the psychological aspects) and forcing the person to deal with the attack.

a comment on sparring.
many trains of thought on this...
in many boxing gyms the green guy is thrown in and tested to his limit. likely the first day or week.  this has pros and cons. it immediatelly shows inherent attributes like heart, speed, agility, chin. but it can cripple the development of the less genetically gifted athlete and even in gifted ones. the green guy is either viewed as having it or not. black and white. to be trained or told to leave. this will quickly weed out the majority.


another way some call inducive training.
100% sparring has it's place but it is a small piece imho.doing it 10-30% of the time is a good gauge to me.. it's primary role imho is to gauge your level. more of an ego thin. in my mind for grudge matches or to develop mental toughness for an upcoming fight.  this includes varying speeds. which may not always increase with force. this also does not mean i do not like going all out at times. sombrada comes to mind here.

For me 100%'s primary role is to practice fighting at 100%.  I do agree that it also does the things you mention.  The reason why we don't do it all the time has to do with wear and tear and overtraining.  Burt likes to break it down further into these 100% "moments", like the suckerpunch drill, to try and maintain the street/competition balance.

we all get hit and there is always someone better.

Statements like that are double edged.  On the one hand, it allows one to relax but on the other hand it may cause one to not train as smartly as one should because whats the sense, we all get hit and there is always someone better.  My attitude is minimize hits and train for my worst nightmare.

*sparrings primary role imho is that of skill development.  against less skilled opponents in general one should attempt to work on his weaknesses in general not there strengths. there's no glory or honor in beating down someone with less skill using your best attributes, but if you are able to work on your weaknesses against these less skilled fighters you will bring those weaknesses to a comfort level. even if the less skilled guy is using his best talents and you are using your weaker talents. sometimes he'll best you, but you learn. that is the objective imho. not how many times i tap or rock my partner.

***with that i do believe in scheduled fights. something for people to peak for. test themselves in the ring instead of in the gym, this will create more gym harmony instead of gym rivalry. i see my training partners as trainers, not opponents to knock down for a scratch on my belt. if i am catching joe schmoe because of a specific hole in his game i will help him not punch bigger holes in it.  
for the fights-analyze the fight, plan a strategy, implement it, then evaluate and repeat.

Agreed.  That is why we are so selective in who we train, if there is an ego problem they usually don't get past Sara.  If the ego is a phase, Burt deals with it in a way that is positive for all parties involved.  My training partners are my family and I feel personally responsible for their betterment.

feeding your partner and swinging like a wild man is a good drill.

other points on pace and pressure in the street-
 "strike first, stikre hard, show no mercy"

Exactly.  

 
see you guys in the gym.[/quote]

Good discussion brother,
Cr8
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Combative
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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2006, 08:25:05 PM »

Wow, there is a lot of answers here, great!!!

Peace

Combative
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